Display: Standard | Mobile | High Contrast

You are here: Home > Resources & Publications > Exchange Magazine > Finding Time To Expand Your Mind - Full Interviews, June 2010

The following are the full interviews for the recent feature Finding Time to Expand Your Mind in the June 2010 edition of Exchange.

TM: What prompted your decision to pursue a Master's degree?

Sonia: I'd actually been thinking it about it for some time. I really wanted to advance my education, but the thought of doing a really theoretical masters degree, where it's more theory than practical application didn't really interest me. I went to the first ever Women in Leadership seminar through LGMA back in 2004, and we did a visioning exercise on what type of work we'd like to do in the next year. It kind of prompted me that I had an interest in facilitating and training.

Sonia: I started asking around, and talked to Linda Guenther in HR about programs, and she mentioned to this one. What I liked about it is that it's an applied program where you learn the theory but there's a real practical application of what you learn, there's relevant real-world problem-solving projects that are grounded in the theory. So you take what you learn and can apply it directly in your work place. So that really appealed to me.

Sonia: You know, I think there's never really a good time to take on any additional work. I mean we all have very busy lives. I was just at a point in my life where I was ready to do some professional development work. I hadn't done any in some time, and I felt I wasn't doing anything for myself to grow personally or professionally. So that meant it just become the top priority. Unfortunately, it meant my life was pretty much work and school for two years, with very little extra-curricular activity permitted. But there were a number of people in my program that had young families, were married and had other commitments. I was single at the time, but I still had a very demanding job. That same year that I started the program, I was also the Chief Election Officer for the general election in November of 2005. I was very fortunate to have a supportive organization and Trevor (Wingrove), my boss at the time, was my project sponsor and was also very accommodating. And I had a great team of people that worked with me and took up the slack if I had take a day here or there to finish a project, especially towards the end. The program instructors were also very understanding. They help you work through some of those challenges.

Sonia: You'd be able to do it. You re-prioritize. You work, you go home and that's what you do. It's tough. But whenever people say to me "I'm too busy, I can't do it" I believe that they're busy, but I also believe that if it's something you really want to do you, you will find the time to do it. It just means you will have to drop something off.

Sonia: I think it was the practical application of what I'd learned. Everything I learned, I could apply it to my day-to-day work and my personal life as well. Everything kind of made sense. This word was over used - resonated - I cringe when I hear it. But a lot of this stuff resonated with me, it just made sense.

Sonia: Some of the core subjects we learned in the program were systems thinking, organizational change, learning theories and learning styles and conflict resolution. Conflict resolution and learning styles was something I was able to take away because I've been able to / one of the top things for me about being a leader is being able to adapt your style so that it best suits the person and situation that you're dealing with. It's not about having one style as a leader, it's about being flexible and adaptable, because you can only control your own behaviour, you can't control others' behaviour. So if you can learn to adapt your style, and personally, if I'm talking to a friend and I know she will respond better to me if I use a different tone of voice or different style, then I can adjust and adapt myself.

Sonia: Oh yeah. All the time. But really, I think going through the stress of that program and taking on the extra load, you kind of learn not to sweat the small stuff. You see things in a bigger perspective. You see how my behaviour here might impact someone's behaviour there. So I gained a better understanding of myself as a person and how I respond to different situations. That's one of the biggest things I took away from the program, like how I react in a stressful situation or when I don't understand what's going on - so I understand myself better.

Sonia: Not really, I'm not sure I really thought about what I'd get out of it in that way. I tell you, in the first one-month residency, they stripped you down to the core. You were left to nothing because they were trying to get you to connect with your "authentic self" (Sonia used finger- quotations here) - I know, warm and fuzzy - and everybody cried in the first residence, myself included. It was a humbling experience where you kind of started doing a lot of self-assessment and figuring out who you are, who you want to be as a leader and as a person. It's scary really to get down to that. We acted out these skits, and while it's not my favourite thing to do, it was taking theory and applying it, so a different way of learning.

Sonia: I think it was juggling my schedule. There was a lot of group work in the program, especially in the first year, so that was challenging because you're being forced to work together with people you haven't chosen. It's about learning to work well as a team. But the whole work, juggling thing was tiring. I was happy when it was done. But that wasn't a surprise at all, but I figured there's no better time than now. I might as well just do it.

Sonia: I understand better how I learn as a person, and had I known that when I first went to university I would have done a lot better. I learn by doing - sitting in a lecture is like one ear and out the other, that doesn't do it for me. So now when I'm challenged with a new task at work, I know what to do to get from A to B, so that's been really helpful. I know how to tackle new challenges at work that in the past would have left me really frustrated.

Sonia: Yes, I would. As much as I'm glad it's over. It's a great program and I'd recommend it to anyone.

Sonia:  I tell them that it's changed me personally and professionally. It's a real growing experience for me. I really kind of sell the practical application of the programs - you can take this apply everything that you learn. It's not just a bunch of pie-in-the-sky theory, where you're thinking 'what does that really mean'. It actually means something. And, I don't know how to say it, but the "homey" feel of the program. It's an academic program of course, but you're not in this big lecture hall, you're in a classroom and you're broken up into smaller working groups. It took away the formality of university study and made it more informal. The good thing about this program is that you don't need a previous degree to get into it. They focus a lot on work experience. So I'd say the average age of the participants is in their 30s, if not older. Everybody that you're working with is a professional and has been working for a while, so you've got a real range of people and experiences so that kind of emphasized the practical application of the program because you could share your experiences. It wasn't just a bunch of newbies straight out of universities who are coming in with their BA and haven't really worked in the real world. It was very refreshing for me.

---

Sundance: Basically, I live in a place called Wells, which is really, really small - there's like 250 people in the entire community. So in terms of working as a municipality it's one of the smallest in BC. so what I've really tried to do - I do a lot in my job, basically everything. I like to do is have a touch point to make sure I'm doing things properly. So I try to take as much external training as possible. I did the MATI course, that's where I met Tom. But I've also been doing the online UVic School of Public Administration while I'm working, and any other learning opportunities when they come up. I'm trying to learn as much as possible about my job while doing it. And by having some learning best practices, because we're so small, I need to have another touchstone. That's what I do and I live in a place that's really small, where I have to do a whole bunch of stuff, and I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

I want to advance the possibility of career advancement. I think when you're in a small community that you can show that you're learning the right way.

Sundance: I went to UVic and did political science and then to Camosun and did applied communications. I did everything from radio/television, to PR and website design. I was actually working in economic development and marketing in local government. That's how I got my foot in the door. And then switched to administration after about three years, and that's when I decided I'd better do some other education. It's interesting, you know. I never looked at local government in college or university, it's something I kind of fell into. If someone had floated the possibility then, I would of have said 'no, I'm going to be a sports broadcaster.' So it was something I kind of fell into and I really like it. It's funny how it works. I first got out of school and was in journalism doing newspapers for a long time. Then I got into communications and then local government.

It's kind of an organic process to end up where I'm at. I think it's important along the way to definitely put in the energy to learn. I find a lot of people in local government are a combination. I know a lot of people have master's degrees in local government administration through UVic. They always knew that this was what they wanted to do, got their master's degree in local government administration. That's what they knew that they wanted to do and they got their jobs without a lot of actual experience in municipalities. On the other end are people like myself who kind of found their way into local government and are learning their way as you go while doing it. I can't speak from any other point of view, but I really like what I do. It's almost like an apprenticeship in that I'm doing the work and taking the training at the same time.

That's the way I learn so it works really well.

Sundance: I knew about the public administration courses at UVic from having gone there. When I went to the courses at MATI I looked into it further. And also at LGMA conferences they had information there too, and I was comfortable with UVic.

Sundance: That's an interesting one, because one of my last courses was a research paper on work life balance. It was a leadership management course and again, it's an interesting one. I'm lucky because the town I live in is really small, I have two small children and my wife is a stay-at-home mom. So I work literally 2 minutes from where I live, so our lifestyle means that I have a bit of downtime. It's always a balance. Like I don't take courses in the summer so I can have the summer off as a mental break. I'll admit that it's tough to do the school work when you're working, because you're not getting paid for it. You do all of your day's work and your burned out, and then you come home and have to do the other stuff, but I actually like the interaction, and knowing that I'm doing things the right way.

The courses are interesting too. They're not dry, I find them very practical. So it's not hard to get it in balance.

It's a combination - I don't have huge commutes. I have a bit of downtime. I'm interested in the subject, and you know, I don't take a huge course load. I try to balance it out.

Sundance: I think the most rewarding part is knowing that we're doing things pretty cutting edge and effectively in our organization. The more I see in terms of what the right way to do things are, or the best practices now, I see that we're doing that already. So it reinforces the positive stuff that we're doing in our community.

Sundance: Because we're so small, it gives us a lot of flexibility to approach things in a unique style. There are literally four people that work at the municipality. We meet each week and discuss what needs to be done, and come up with creative solutions. Because we're a municipality, we have all the same legal status as other larger cities in terms of applying for grants and other things. But we're so small that we're able to take advantage of these opportunities and turn them over really quickly. Because of that we've been able to do all kinds of really progressive stuff. Like we as a municipality own our community school and we just got an innovations grant to put a huge geo-thermal heating system into it. We did a huge community garden project and a massive federal mountain bike trail that went in last year.

As a staff we're so small, we're able to jump on things and get really productive results easier than a bigger community. As long as you have the good ideas going forward, there are no impediments being small. It can be a bonus.

Sundance: I guess I miss one-on-one interaction with other students. Distance education is good but it's lacking on some levels. It would be nice to have more opportunities to meet face-to-face with people and discuss things. You have to get used to the learning environment and it's different than most of us are used to.

Sundance: I approach it like a job - and I have to - you approach it like you have deadlines and you need to do them. Basically, when the deadlines there you have to do it or you don't get the grade. It's funny, I took economics last semester, and I actually did very poorly in economics when I took it at university the first time and I was a bit hesitant going forward in it. But it was interesting taking it a second time. It wasn't the exact same course, but it was the same principles and all the crappy economic stuff you have to do. But when I put the time into and forced myself, I actually did fairly well in it. It's a little bit different doing schooling now than what it was back in university when you're taking five courses. It's a more practical experience and you put your energy into it. Once you're used to the environment, you can do all right.

The downside is you have to be able to meld your learning style to the environment.

Sundance: I think the big thing is that you know that it's going to apply to your every day job. When you're in university and don't know what kind of job you're going to get, you don't know if it's going to be relevant. Whereas I know in my day to day interactions and work experience whether I'm taking something that's relevant. If it's relevant and you're enhancing your ability to do your job, then it's positive. I think with this, you can find the immediate benefit.

Sundance: It's just interesting being a student again. Even though you're not 100%, you get your student number, UVic email account and it's a funny sort of world to be part of, but which I enjoy. I think I appreciate going back to school now at 35 than I did at 20 because my mentality is more suited to absorb what I'm learning. Being back at school and interacting with people who are learning is enjoyable.

Sundance: I don't know that I would. I didn't look at a lot of schools because I was comfortable with UVic I kind of like how it's going.

Sundance: I think I'd say it's worth the energy. Going back to economics, everything you do, you give up something else to do. In order to gain something you have to give up something. And when people are doing ongoing professional development, they're giving something up, whether it's time with their wife, kids or whether it's time away from playing sports or whatever, you have to look at the scales and balance out what you're getting and make sure it's worth more than you're giving up. And I think for myself that it's worth more, so that's why I move forward on it.

If you look at the long run, and if you're enjoying what you're doing and you're able to give up something else in order to do it, I'd say go for it.

Sundance: I think a lot of people are just way too busy. I think people's lives are very condensed. They have their kids in 17 million things and they're trying to do 17 million things. There are only a certain amount of hours. It just comes down to trying to squeeze it in. And are people able to give something up in order to gain something . Again, it comes down to choices and you have to give something up. There are only so many hours in a day, and you don't get paid for it up front, so it's a bit of a sacrifice and you have to be willing to make that sacrifice. I don't think everyone is in the same situation where they can give something up, whatever the pressures are on them.

Sundance: I want to finish of my diploma, keep taking MATI courses and I think the great thing about this career choice is that I've made is that every town, every municipality basically needs people to do the specialized skills that I'm learning how do to. So it's a great field to be in, especially if you like living in small communities - or big communities. It's one of the few jobs that you can basically do anywhere. In terms of what I want to do, I want to perfect my craft a bit more, wait until my children are a bit older and take it from there. Learn as much as possible and then try to position myself so that when I try to move on, I have a lot of opportunity in front of me, that's the key.

---

Russell Dyson
City Clerk/Deputy City Manager - City of Port Alberni

Russell started his career in community planning in Nanaimo, specializing in Parks Planning and Land Use Planning, but made the switch to administration when he became the Administrator at the Lantzville Improvement District. He moved forward to his role as City Clerk in Port Alberni in 2002, and took on the expanded responsibilities of Deputy City Manager starting in 2005. As part of his commitment to continuous learning and professional development training, he has a Bachelor degree in Landscape Architecture and a Certificate in Local Government Administration from Capilano College.

TM: Tell me about your professional development experience.

Russell: I'm probably not a conventional person when it comes to continuing education. I tend to be one that learns from experience and others around me, more so than a formal school or otherwise.

I believe in life-long learning and learning from experience, learning from all people and all others. Whether it's the community members, the people I deal with on a day-to-day basis, my peers, people I work with here in PA, or in the classroom when in that setting. Port Alberni has been blessed a great Manager HR, Teresa Kingston, and she's developed programs that have given us some really practical learning opportunities. There have also been opportunities to ensure that we are meeting our obligations from a workplace safety perspective. So I've had a lot of shorter term, in the classroom experiences here in PA.

TM: So you haven't been doing a specific program as much as learning as you go. What are some of the programs that you've found to be very beneficial?

Russell: Probably the reason we're doing this interview is the Capilano College program, the local government program. That was my most recent program that was well organized in a classroom over an extended period and with a certificate at the end. It was fantastic because I took it at a time when I was breaking into the administrative end of local government. I rose up through local government from a planning background. It introduced me to the broader spectrum of municipal management and experience. And what was fantastic was it was a lot of peer-to- peer learning. Learning from people in the classroom, and also the program is designed to bring in guest speakers so you hearing from people that are working in other local governments and learning from their experience and all aspects of service delivery.

TM: How did you decide that program would be the best fit for you?

Russell: It was the best fit because it came to the Island, it was available at Qualicum so it was readily accessible. The way it was done was over a period of two or three days once a month, so it was easy to undertake without a big impact on work. And also, with the broad way that it looks at local government, it was going to expose you to all aspects of local government and introduce you to aspects that I hadn't worked on directly before.

As an example, I remember the legal program. It brought in a number of lawyers that work with local government. They talked about the issues of law. It exposed me to the principles of administrative justice that, although I practiced and lived by, I'd never studied the details. They also introduced me to principles of common law, and how that affects and shapes local government, the regulations and policies we take, and how watching and following the courts and decisions made in local government, it can shape those policies and procedures in terms of the laws that affect us.

TM: How did you manage to balance work and studying?

Russell: It just fit at the time. Financial support was easier to do then. Work has been getting harder, with more and more demand and less opportunities to chase education.

I think if I were to do it today it would be far more difficult than it was then. I think the municipalities I've been involved with - Port Alberni is a classic example of a community that's on the ropes financially, so we're reducing our education budget, cutting back on attendance at conferences. Not just time and demand wise, but public perception as well. There's just not a realization that there is value. I think the financial support from the organization has diminished, that's not a fault of managers or peers, it's just economic times and attitude and perceptions of our community that flow through to our Council.

TM: What have you found to be the most rewarding part of continuous learning -what is that makes it so appealing to you?

Russell: There's always a way for us to do things better, there's always a way to be more efficient, there's always a way to be more responsive to our community and in order to do that, I don't believe that the only way to do that is a formal education. I believe you can do that by learning from peers, others in other municipality, from our community. We're not static. Times are changing so rapidly.

One of the reasons I wanted to go to the Whistler for the day was to expose myself to the ideas of social media. That is not something that we have yet got involved with in PA, but I recognize that the community is very much involved. They're engaged in conversations about us, and we're not engaged with them. It was a matter of finding out what others were doing. So hearing what was being done in Port Coquitlam was great. In the end, we'll end up providing a better service to the public, we'll end up connecting with them more and isn't what that's all about. We're not a static organization that is living by the way we did things in the past. We have to grow and expand with our community as they do.

TM: We talked a bit about how it was easier in the past to get the financial support, so what do you say to people facing financial constraints but still want to get the professional growth?

Russell: I guess it's a matter of convincing them of the importance of it. It's easy to let things fall by the wayside, and we can't let education be one of those things. The thing is to look beyond conventional means.
If your budgets are being cut and can't get to formal opportunities, then find ways of learning from your peers or others. Another example is how a small exposure to an idea can dramatically improves the way I interact with the community. It began at an LGMA Conference in Victoria with a media relations workshop by Carol Boothroyd. I still to this day remember things that she said and the way that she presented her lecture, and that was probably 12 years ago. And I dramatically changed how I interact with media, have a better understanding of how they work and what they're after and how to work with them and use them, and I implemented that and gradually gained confidence and not fear of media. Since that time we've brought Carol to PA and she's helped the other managers learn from that experience as well. We have far more savvy, we're far better prepared to share information with public through the media, whereas in previous years we were afraid of that. It didn't take a lot, it wasn't a great expense, but the right person, when you're in the right frame of mind and on the right topic, can dramatically influence the way you serve your community.

TM: What have you found to be the most difficult or challenging for your professional development?

Russell: Probably, lately, it's taking the time and removing myself from my desk to seek those more formal opportunities. It's just getting away to do it is probably the biggest challenge now.

TM: How do you get yourself to push away from desk and go try something new?

Russell: I guess my reaction to that is look for learning in everyday life and everyday experience, and from everybody around me. I remember when I was a kid, I worked on a farm for a summer job, and was taking landscape architecture at the time. The woman who owned and managed the farm was always asking me questions. I thought, geez, this person must be stupid. But she was an incredibly successful business person. She made very good decisions. And I soon realized that the questions were all about milking me for everything that I knew, and finding out what I do. And she would take the little bits of information that I shared with her, and she did that with everybody. She always asked questions and was very inquisitive. And lo and behold, she learned from everybody around her, and that's why she was a very successful business person. Again, she had no formal education but you would never know that but her success, or the way the way that she handled herself.

It's also about having a very practical, hands-on approach to things and learning through experience. My wife and I managed a farm, and that's what I do outside of the workplace. On the farm, you have to get by with what you have on hand. You have to solve and do things with very modest resources. You learn that approach.

The other thing is, when someone comes into the office, nine times out of ten, it's about something that I can relate to because I've been exposed to it in some small part to the business or work they do. We have something in common from the very beginning. That's incredibly important in public service; that we can relate to the people we work for, and understand their role, their business, their challenges in life.

TM: When you look back on your experience to where you are today, what do you find most surprising?

Russell: That I'm a City Clerk. I had no inclination whatsoever to do what I'm doing. If you'd told me that I'd be in administration I would have laughed. I never saw this coming. It just all fell into place and was supported by bits of education here and there, through Capilano College. It was definitely supported by the people I met through that program…through LGMA…the other people in local government and the accessibility of those people. I was able to ask questions and hear from them. The sharing of information is so readily available. That's what made it happen. That's why I'm here doing what I'm doing.

TM: What has it meant to you personally?

Russell: Never being afraid to try things new, take risks, being able to problem solve, do things fairly independently and being able to pass that on to my son. You know, in order to be involved with my son's interests I had to learn how to play and coach hockey. And that was very fulfilling because I did it because of my son's interest, but in the end I began shaping and influencing the lives of 15 youth, and it was very satisfying. And the things I learned coaching again had tremendous application here at work, about communicating your message clearly and concisely, keeping things simple, inspiring, keeping interest…all the things you need to do to let with hockey role along through a season and be successful are just as critical in work place.

TM: What do you think are the biggest reasons professionals like yourself do not pursue advanced or ongoing education? What would you tell them?

Russell: Probably, from my experience here, probably the biggest impediment would be feeling of responsibility to the organization, feeling that they can't leave or step aside for a moment and take the time off work. But that would probably be the biggest impediment to most, but my answer to that is look at how much better you'll be, how much better you'll be able to serve your community and we can always get by, especially for a short term, without them. And that's the investment that we will make for them and their career, is to making sure that we can get by while they pursue their education, and come back better, more fulfilled, energetic, enthusiastic people.

TM: Where do you want to go from here - what would you find most interesting/exciting?

Russell: I'm happy where I'm at as long as there are challenges and I can provide a role in solving problems. I don't have a grand plan for achieving "this position" in "that place." I guess my goals and objectives are about finding meaningful ways to find improvements, and other ways to make our community a better place.

• Annual Reports
• Bylaw Adjudication
• Compensation Toolkit
• Links
• LGMA Manuals for Sale
• Board Meeting Minutes
• Exchange Magazine
  • Finding Time To Expand Your Mind - Full Interviews, June 2010
  • Chapter 290 Newsletter Archive
• Teamworks
• Find a Temporary Employee
• Request For Proposals
• UBCM Comment on Fiscal Management in BC's Municipalities
• Supreme Court of Canada Upholds North Cowichan Tax Rates Bylaw - Press Releases, January 2012